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I am so beyond excited for today's interview on Chloe in Wonderland because I am sitting down with top defense attorney, Mark Garagos, who has been defending people for decades, Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson, the Menendez brothers, just to name a few. He has such a long list of people that he's represented. He knows the system like the back of his hand, and I cannot wait to pick his brain a little bit. And I'm so excited for you guys to be along this episode with us and to learn a little bit and get a little nosy about some of these cases. This is equivalent to Oprah, so it is a big deal. Is it a usable episode, by the way? Is it? Okay. I first met your sister many years ago at an Armenian event. They had corralled her in to be there just as she was starting out. And so I knew she was Armenian. Oh, for that long. We've kept in contact ever since, but somehow she's always kept you away from me. I know. Why is that? And I'm the best one. Save the best for last. No, I'm just kidding. He is a constituency who lobbies for you as the best of the... No, I was joking. I was watching the new evidence on A&E. Right. For maybe any of the younger listeners that don't know, we're talking about the Scott Peterson case. And I was watch it on the plane with Kim and I am dying. Like, I'm like, what? Did she tell you what she was doing? I mean, that text thread is one of the most hilarious text threads. No, so I'm, like, wait. So, you know, you have the headphones and I'm like, like, how is that? I'm, like getting into every point. And I just see her like this. And then I go, are you writing down everything I'm asking you? She's like, oh, no, I'm just I'm Just sending everything to Mark Garagos. And I'm Like, wait, what a go add me to the thread. I need to be on this thread then. And she would not. But then she's like Don't you think you should be on your podcast? I mean, yes, I could do this all day long. So better than a text. And that's exactly, and she said, she pitched already. She's your booker. She is. So, Jen, you're losing your job, right? Yeah. Jen will gladly hand it off to Kim for a second. Wait, did you watch this? I did. Okay. So, when you were- I have so much to go. What year were you born? I was born in 84. Okay.So, you would have been when the case was happening 20 years old. Yes. But I will say, when thecase was happening, I don't remember being so invested in it. I remember- Right. Because you weren't a professional white woman. The target demographic. I told this story and it's absolutely true. I would be in the gym trying this case. And inevitably in the morning, a woman would come up to me. Inevitably, it was a professional White woman, a doctor, a lawyer, whatever it was. And she would say, well, what about this? And I would say well, that didn't happen. Or I debunked it. And what about THIS? And, you know, he was trying to flee to Mexico. And I said, well, it's an interesting way to flee. He was going north on the 5 Freeway, which last I looked is Canada. And they say, well. He dyed his hair. And I say, he was being stalked by reporters everywhere he went. He was still selling fertilizer, believe it or not, and trying to make out a living. So it didn't matter because inevitably they would say, it is okay. I don't care what you tell me. I had a boyfriend who was just like him and I could see him doing it. And how do you compete with that? How do you disabuse somebody of that? Even I think when I look back, I was like, oh my gosh, for sure guilty. I didn't even know about the trial. So I'm saying this off of what I'm hearing everyone else say, like, what is the point? Of course he killed her. And just because you have an affair with someone doesn't mean you're a murderer. Well, he never got past, there's a famous photo of him with his arm around Amber, the massage therapist from Fresno. Not, you know, denigrating that, but that's what it was. And that photo is juxtaposed in all the tabloids with him, with Lacey, his wife, pregnant, very pregnant on the same day at a Christmas party, sitting alone in a chair. I remember that. I mean, everybody said it was it's kind of an archetype, but it taps into something and it's hard to get past that. And I even said in an opening, I said, look, he's a cad. He had an affair. I get it. But that doesn't make him a murderer. And unfortunately, the problem was for him that he had, he was in Modesto and I had represented a congressman in Modesta like three years before that by the name of Gary Condit. Gary was having at the time an affair with Chandra Levy and Chandra disappeared. And when it became apparent that Gary, the Congressman was having an affair, she was an intern. All bets were off. They, I remember marching him into the grand jury in DC. Everybody thought he was guilty. He killed her because of the affair. He didn't want to found out. So everybody in Modesto knew that was the case. So there are tapes of Scott at the vigil and he's telling her, I'm in the, you know, I'm embarrassed and I can't be with you. And he's saying anything to just get her not to surface. Little does he know Modesto PD is taping him. And those tapes were awful. And that's the problem. But the bigger problem was from my standpoint, they couldn't say when she was killed. They couldn't see how she was killed. He couldn't stay where she was kill. All they know is that four months later, she showed up after a storm in the area where he had been fishing. Let's recap a little bit. Scott Peterson had a wife. They were cookie cutter, husband and wife. She was pregnant, nine months pregnant. Correct. And she disappears, disappears and is not found for roughly four months. And the disappearance happens from a Modesto neighborhood. The dog, They had a dog, I think, named Mackenzie, who was found with the leash on. It's a muddy leash. Don't get me started on that neighbor. But anyways, I have notes. Okay. Well, I'll let you ask the question. No, but go on. Finish. So anyway, she disappears. He does. In fact, I had breakfast with Diane Sawyer not too long ago this year. And I said, you are like the axis of evil for criminal defendants in high-profile cases. If I had a nickel for every case I've ever had where my client, before I met them, had done an interview with Diane Sawyer that was played for me in a courtroom that I had to deal with, it's awful. And his interview did not disappoint in terms of being awful. And also the power of the media. They were fixated on a story. It was also probably very funneled by Modesto police, and they weren't willing to veer off that. Understand? It's so f***ed up. Well, remember, too. I, at that time, I was sitting doing the preliminary hearing for Scott. And back then I would wear a pager in the middle of the preliminary hearing, I get a page and it's from the 805 area code. It was Neverland telling me that they were executing search warrants at Michael Jackson's. So I literally left Scott's preliminary hearing, flew to Vegas to get Michael to turn him in, in Santa Barbara. And interestingly, to put it in context, Michael Jackson being search warrants executed and then a criminal prosecution, you don't get much bigger than that, you would think conceptually. Scott Peterson was way bigger in terms of just the public fascination of it. And you never can predict. Ten weeks ago, if you had told me Lindsay Clancy was going to be kind of 60 minutes wall-to-wall on mainstream media, I would have told you we're smoking something. But here we are. I mean, it is a subject you can't, in my world, I can't even tell you the number of people who are fixated on that case. And ten weeks ago they wouldn't have known if that was their first or last name. But do you think that's because of now the TikTok detectives? Absolutely. Right. Look, I picked up, I don't know, three years ago, speaking of Kim, I picked up the Menendez brothers. Now they had in 2005 had pretty much lost their last appeal. And so Eric and Lyle were pretty much done. And they decided they had a fork in the road. And I always say this, they decided we're going to, you know, you could turn left and become a degenerate and commit crime, and that's how you're going to live out your life with no hope. Or you could do good things. And they decided to do good things. Eric started a hospice program. If you go down and visit him, you will see inmates pushing around guys who were on their last legs, so to speak, in kind of an end-of-life hospice problem. There's a giant courtyard where Lyle has started a green space program That's based on the Norwegian concept of acclimating people once they get out, because after all, 90 some odd percent of all the prisoners are going to be out and you want them to not reoffend. And that's what he's trying to do. So they had no hope. They did that. I took the case. And then subsequent to that, the tick tockers, I'll remember, were really a force. And there was a documentary. And then, as you know, Kim and Ryan got involved. And then next thing you know, they've been resentenced. And in March, they have a parole hearing, which I'm hopeful will get them out. Leslie Abramson, who tried the case, said at the time that I took it, or a little right around, no number of TikTokers is ever going to solve this case or ever goingto do anything. I take exception. I love Leslie. I think she was one of the greatest defense lawyers ever. But she's wrong. TikTok did it. That was essential. Do you think if the TikTok detectives were around during the era of Scott Peterson... Never would have been convicted. I agree. And especially the new evidence. That got me. I was hanging on every word everyone was saying. It is almost, to me, it scares me. I told Kim, I go, how frightening that this could happen to someone, how frightening that the police can just be like, oh, so there was a burglary across the street and we're going to change the date, which, and mind you, I've talked to reporters who went on to become very good friends. The police, Modesto's way to solve this was there was a burillery, the first reports, December 24th, same day, same time she goes missing right across the street. If you were in Modesto, the streets are not exactly wide. They're 45 feet from curb to curb on this particular street. They had a problem. Police had a problema. That was a lead. There was a van that was identified. There was burglary. Okay. Now, so the police way to solve it is we've closed it. It was on December 26th, not the 24th. But also how could that happen with the media. Ted Rawlings, who's gone on to bigger and better things, used to say, I was broadcasting on December 25th and 26th directly in front of that house as a backdrop. If somebody was pulling out a six-foot safe, the entire world would have seen it. It was ludicrous. And not to mention the 20-plus eyewitnesses that saw Lacey walking the dog after Scott Peterson went with the boat. And also saying that he would have had to meticulously have cleaned up four different crime scenes. Some amateur murderer. I mean, I am an amazing cleaner and I love to clean. You don't know how to do that, to do it to that level. There's no way he could have done it. Look, somebody says, how do you know? How do you know? And I will tell you, this is how I know. I have represented, for whatever reason, more privately retained murder cases than I think anybody walking around. I just, for whatever reasons. I don't want that on my tombstone, but that's where it is. At a certain point, you get to know a person or a type. You know who's capable. And I will tell you after 10 000 reps this guy is not capable of it it's the first case i've ever called as a character witness a nun the nun said he never showed anything she was in school never showed a thing but going back to the van so they changed the date and say it was the 26th which was ludicrous but anyway on the day that he's convicted they hand me a report and the report is a lieutenant I think his name was Aponte, and he is working at Chino, and he overhears a recorded prison conversation of an inmate talking to one of the burglars, and they start talking about Lacey, and then they realize we're on tape. And Aponte thought enough of it that he wrote a report. He sees the tape, and he sent it to Modesto PD, who conveniently- What did they do? Nothing. Didn't they destroy it? They destroyed the tape. They got Aponte to say, oh, maybe I was mistaken, even though he'd written a report. And best of all, I didn't know this until recently, they did recover a van. The van with the mattress. This gets me going. Please tell the story. They find within two days of Lacey missing, there's an area in Modesto called the Airport District, which is a seedy kind of area of town, not too far from Lacey and Scott's house. And they find the van, they find it with a mattress that has fluids in the back, and somebody lit it on fire. And they know that it had something to do with this because they then have all of the information sent to the State Department of Justice to be analyzed. But guess what? They never, ever told us. Only after the analyst retired a couple of years ago from the Department of Justice did he feel so guilty about letting them suppress it that he came forward and said, wait a second here, we knew about this in real time. We had this. We tested it. But Modesto police would not give you that information decades later than you get it. Not to mention there were three cadaver dogs, right? And one of them went, after getting Lacey sent, went to the airplane district where the van was that they didn't disclose to you. Isn't that just unbelievable? Like, what are we talking about? And, and make it even worse, and I've said this before, I, when they're doing the hearing on testing it, the Innocence Project says, we want to test it. And they're fighting tooth and nail. I said, I publicly said,I will pay for the testing. Shut me up. Tell me I'm wrong. You'll pay for testing of the mattress. I'll pay the testing of mattress. What are we doing here? Why are we? And what's their reason? Like, how do they tell you no? They just, we don't want the victims to relive this. Well, by the way, if he's innocent, do a thought experiment. Who's a bigger victim than he is? 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If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to shopify.com slash chloe to start your free trial today that's right start your free trial at shopify dot com slash chloe that's shopify .com slash cloe all of this why would they do this just so the community feels safe and they pin it on someone and for modesto police to look like they're tough big guys that got this under wraps it is uh look i tried this case to their credit they got a conviction i think of an innocent man but it was one of the most keystone cops and i'm probably dating myself by using that expression bumbling bumbling horrible detective work if you could even call it that i remember the opening statement the opening segment i have all kinds of reports that say that the reason that she was killed on the 23rd is Scott, when he was interviewed, said the morning of the 24th, Lacey was alive watching Martha Stewart on the Today Show. And that was in the affidavit sworn under penalty of perjury. We reviewed the Today show tapes and Martha was on the23rd, not the24th. Well, guess what? I went and got the Today's show tapes. She was onthe24th, I played it for the jury in opening. Guess what else. By the time we got to closing, we'd established, they didn't establish this. They put on a forensic computer expert. And I started asking him questions. I said, well, did you look at the computer that they used in the house on the morning of the 24th? And he said, yes. And I said did you see some use at whatever it was, 8 to 10 a.m.? Yes. Whose password was used? And he said, Lacey's. What was she looking for? She was looking for sunflower related items. She had a tattoo of a sunflower. I said, do you have a conclusion as an expert who's been put on by the prosecution as to who was using that computer on the morning of the 24th? And he said yes, Lacey Peterson. And I said did the prosecution ever ask you that question? They did not. And how are these things legal? They aren't. But they unfortunately one of the one of the kind of things that happens in the criminal justice system is once you get filed on, it takes literally an act of Congress to get something reversed. How hard is it for you where you fully believe that Scott Peterson is innocent? I used to say back when I drank, I had more alcohol therapy than any human alive. And people often ask, they say, how do you sleep at night? I had nickel for every time somebody said and i you probably went through this with your dad i mean how many you got pilloried he got pillored i remember at the time he was absolutely hammered over that case yeah and because he stood by him and the system doesn't work if you have somebody who doesn't stand by their client but i don't worry about the clients who are guilty i worry about the ones that i think are innocent that's what keeps me up at night but again watching that That's why it scares me so much because this could be anyone. Like how all of these things are even talking about. So you were 10 at the time of OJ. Mm-hmm. Okay. So my daughter was 10 at The Tenney, was 10 at the Time of Scott. Okay. And she used to come to court with me. You went to court a couple of times if I remember. And the whole trial, even though I was 10, I remember like all of it. As much as I was exposed to, I remember so vividly Well, I used to take her back into the lockup. So she knew Scott and she was there. She's now a criminal defense lawyer. And interestingly, when you see that kind of interaction at that age, it really has an impact. You start to see, I mean, I would imagine you still think about that to this day. I do. And I remember just such pivotal moments. I think of it from a different angle and experience, obviously, but yeah, it's very impactful. How do you choose your clients? You know, originally I quote Justice Scalia by whoever can pay me. And that was his thing. He says when he was talking about criminal defense lawyers. Now I've gotten to the point where it's what interests me, who's getting bullied. I remember 10 years ago, in fact, I was just thinking about it last night. Colin Kaepernick is out with his book, The Perilous Fight, and he's doing the rounds. And I remember when I met Colin the first time in New York 10 years old, and I represented him. And this guy, I remember seeing him play in one particular playoff game before I'd ever met him and saying, what a stud of a player he was. And then it was obvious to me that he had taken a stand and got blackballed and he stood tough. And I figured if he was going to stand tough, why couldn't I? The case that really kind of changed the course of my career was a woman back in the 90s named Susan McDougal. And she was the erstwhile business partner of Bill and Hillary Clinton in Whitewater. And Susan was amazing. I mean, she was not going to lie for the independent counsel in order to get Bill and Hillary Clinton. She just said, I'd rather go to jail. And she stood tough. And three trials later, she, you know, was vindicated. So don't you get nervous sometimes to take on? There's nothing more nerve wracking than, I mean, first of all, even if there's nobody who's around, you know, Johnny used to say, who was a mentor, Johnny is to say OJ and no J's. Yeah, Johnny Cochran. And I used to think, I used not really quite understand that in the 90s. I've come to learn what that means. But you still, you've got a person. And it's like, I imagine all of my surgeon friends said the same thing. Once they're under anesthesia, because the clients basically when they're in court are under their own form of anesthesia. They have no idea what's going on. Right. You might as well drop them in by drone. I mean, how many times I've had a client tell me, he's lying. He's lying! I said, I know. Just let me get the cross. Just let him get there. Yeah. Let's just say I committed a bad crime and I did it. Do you want me to tell you that? You know, it's an interesting subject. Even though we're trying to plead my innocence. Correct. Yeah. So I generally will tell the client, don't tell me yet what your side of this is. Okay. First, I want to see what the prosecution has. I wantto analyze it. I don't want you to start locking yourself into something because you may not know. I've had clients who've told me a story and I've sat with them and said, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I couldn't sell that to anybody. And then they'll tell me the second story. And I'll say, that's even worse. I don't want to hear it. And then by the time I get to the third story, it's the truth. But it's so mortifyingly embarrassing that they never want to admit it. It's actually, in some cases, they'd rather go down for the crime they're charged with than what the truth is. Than what really happened. There's always something. And until you know what the prosecution has, prosecutors got a different duty than a defense lawyer. Prosecutors are supposed to see the truth is done. They're not supposed to convict just because they bring a case. They're supposed to do what's right. A defense lawyer is supposed to be able to do the right thing. They're also supposed to know what's to do, what's right, but within the confines of advocating for their client and to make sure that they're doing everything possible zealously for their client. And that's, there's a, there'S a difference there. There's a tension there. But you would rather not know until you need to know. I would absolutely rather not know. Plus, I'll take murder as an example. We have made a decision as a society that if you kill someone, then you have to examine it. If you premeditated, did it intentionally with kind of a bad mindset that you wanted to collect money, financial gain, or you laid in wait, we say that's the worst thing you can do. That's a special circumstance that exposes you to capital, to the death penalty. If you did this almost kind of impulsively, but didn't have sufficient justification, that could be second degree. If you had justification, if you caught somebody, I won't give you examples, but you caught somebody cheating on you who you loved, and you decided, in Texas, we used to say you get one free shot, but you decided in a rage to kill your paramour or their paramour, we generally will reduce that to a manslaughter. If you're crazy and you're driving drunk, for instance, and you know the consequences, we have now come to terms as policy that that can be elevated, even though you had no intent whatsoever but if you've killed somebody that can be murdered that can be what's called implied malice murder so no i'm not here to judge you i mean i did at one point think about becoming a priest but um i was talked out of it by the archbishop the armenian archbishops um but if if you're charged with something you want somebody who's going to deal with it, tell you these are the options, and guide you through it. Because there's nothing, you know, somebody close to you dies. You get a ritual, you get a funeral, you got to bereave, you get 40 days, you've got a year. If you're charged with a crime, as somebody once famously said, you can beat the rat, but not the ride. And that is true. It's the system chews you up. Do you even feel like that in today's day and age, I know you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but do you feel like that even happens? No, of course not. Okay, I have a question for you. If someone peeked inside your Target bag this week, what would they learn about you? Because everyone knows that iconic red Target bag, but no two bags tell the same story. What's inside is kind of a little window into who you are right now, what you love, what you're into, and what you're getting ready for next. So let me show you mine because I'm fully in my cozy fall era. First, there's a big chunky throw blanket and a candle that smells like apple cider because right now my whole goal is making my place feel warm and calm when I get home at the end of a long day. Then there's the next one. There's a new lip color that I've been obsessed with, a little deeper for fall because sometimes a new lipstick is all it takes to feel like a fresh version of yourself. There's cute jacket I've already worn three times this week, and a new set of workout leggings because I'm trying to actually move my body more this season. There are snacks, obviously, because recording days run long and I need backup. And there's a little something for my niece because half the fun of a Target run is finding something that makes someone you love smile. And then, of course, there's something that I love that I can't do without. There's a random thing I absolutely did not go in for but could not leave without. This week, it was a tiny ceramic pumpkin. No regrets. I'm sitting at my desk right now, and it makes me happy every single time I look at it. That's what I love about Target. it's not just about having everything. It's about finding your thing. My bag right now says cozy, a little bit indulgent, trying to take care of myself, and thinking about the people I love. Yours probably looks completely different. And that's the whole point. Whether you're redoing your space, trying a new look, starting something new, or just treating yourself on a Tuesday, whatever chapter you're in, Target is where you'll find it. All that's new and uniquely you it's in the bag i know at one point you were sort of against having cameras in the courtroom do you now have a different perspective on that absolutely you would never have seen anything that happened in i'll give you the last example lindsey clancy if you didn't see it in the courtroom i now think if the case is big enough that people have that kind of interest you have to have cameras in them you cannot because i used to say about michael jackson and scott peterson Both of those cases were not televised. In both of those cases, diametrically opposite results. Michael was acquitted. Scott was convicted. Scott would not have been convicted if there were cameras in the courtroom, in my humble opinion, because the jury was not sequestered. Michael was acquitted, but lived the rest of his days under the cloud of having gone to trial. People thought he just got off. Fancy lawyer, blah, blah. So sad. It is sad. I knew Michael with my family. We're close to the Jacksons, and it's just so sad. How was he for you? By the time I got to Michael, I always say, I never thought he'd make it through trial. I really did not. In fact, I tell this joke, but it's true. I had Ben Brofman. Johnny had brought Ben Brocman in because I thought when they indicted Michael, the first count, I thought, was directed at me. That it was me and my investigators investigators investigating the family who ended up making the accusation then i bought brought ben in and there's that famous scene where michael after the arraignment in one fell swoop is on top of the suv yes and i and there i just saw this in the verdict which was on yes yes and i they showed the picture i'm there with ben and ben is kind of a legendary criminal defense lawyer in new york and he looks at me he says if we don't get this guy under control he's going to come to court in his pajamas. And that's exactly what ended up happening. I never thought for a million years, kudos to Mesereau, because I never though he would get through trial. But I testified because of that first count, not once but twice in his trial. And I remember Ron Zonin, who was the prosecutor cross-examining me. And he did something, and I made some quip. And that jury was laughing so hard. And as I walked out, I told Michael, you're never going to lose this case. This jury loves you. And mind you, they brought that case in Santa Maria. Well, that's where Neverland is. He has probably employed and was very generous at the time. 500 people in that community. Nobody wanted to convict him. Have you ever taken a case, thinking one thing about your client and then believing something totally different whether that be innocent or guilty at the beginning both ways both ways how do you deal with that tougher it's tough i remember i've got a partner tina and um i won't mention too much of the facts as to not identify the case she believed these two guys um desperately believed and thought they were innocent she was a new lawyer also an armenian um and tina that Glandian went to the well for these two guys. And then I had subpoenaed for her a videotape that the prosecution didn't know about. And you found out differently. Yeah, I found out different. I showed her that tape. I've never seen the heartbreak in a human being as she had been so. And I said, that's... The name of the game. I also had the exact opposite position where I didn't really believe I thought I could win the case, but I didn'T really believe the person. And I, I remember sitting and discovering halfway through the case that my client not only was not telling me the truth, but was innocent and was covering up for his cousin. And I turned to him and I, cause I stumbled upon it during cross-examination of a witness. and i turned to him i said when are you going to tell me that you're covering for your cousin because you're facing life do you understand what you're doing here your cousin's not gonna he's not going to take life for you right taking life for him and he just said that's what we do or something to that effect damn that was a flip and in that case don't you sometimes think maybe the government doesn't care they just want to pin someone oh the government i hate to say I'll say it again. If I, you, you don't have enough time for me to tell you horror stories about the criminal justice system. It's a nightmare. You know, I think about the Reiner case and they just famously announced last week, they're not going to seek the death penalty for Nick Reiner. Well, understand something. Rob Reiner was very good to me in the nineties on a case that I had that I won't talk about, but I'll just say he was wonderful. The client had no money. He wanted to take care of the client. He did. I helped out. The last person that Rob Reiner would want prosecuted and given the death penalty, even for the person who killed his son, who killed him and his wife, is Rob Reimer. Rob Reigner never. And so this idea that somehow we're contemplating the death felony, what are you talking about? This is not somebody who would ever in a million years, and I assume that the family came and said the same thing to the DA. What are you doing here? In a case like that, where it's known that the son killed his parents, what is the trial for? Mental state. Mental state? Same as Lindsay Clancy. Contrary to the TikTokers who, you know, I'll mention this also. There were unbelievable numbers of people, women under 35, who were absolutely positive that Patrick Clancy had something to do with the death of the three babies convinced of it it's i mean i would talk to people who otherwise were seemingly uh very well educated very smart but were convinced of it and could make compelling arguments the one reason i think that they could do that is because only the jury and those in the courtroom heard the 911 tape of him discovering the kids and anybody who was in that courtroom told me it was the most bone-chilling guttural primal awful thing they'd ever heard and they'll never unhear that and the jurors when they came out said the same thing and so when you think about it that way um and he forgave his wife and i remember telling somebody eight weeks ago he said the jury's gonna hate her so the jury is not gonna hate that woman that woman obviously was a very good mother they hadn't they're not going to put anybody on who's going to say anything otherwise she strangled brutally strangled these kids and then tried to kill herself and she's sitting there paralyzed you have to understand humanity i mean humanity is not i want to hang her uh you know or or inject her with lethal injection humanity is it had to be a mental state nick reiner i mean he's got documented problems. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system, you know, Lee Baca used to say this, who was the former sheriff says, I run the biggest mental institution in the world, LA County jail. And it's true. It's 80% sit in the criminal courts building. Sometime 80% of the calendar call are people with either, um, the drug problems, addiction problems, mental health problems and they're self-medicating go and walk around downtown la see what's happening it's awful my office is smack dabbed wilshire and figueroa i go out into i call lebanon alley i now call it fentanyl alley it's awful when someone like a nick reiner or lindsey clancy when would those people with mental illness do they go to a jail type of it's an interesting it's a great question so the twin towers downtown is basically for people with mental health challenges okay so that's where they house them the problem is they aren't equipped and the sheriff does a herculean job trying to deal with it but atascadero some of the other mental health places really are better equipped and what ends up happening in these cases where somebody is just in the throes of mental illness is, you will declare a doubt as to their competency. They get sent out to one of these facilities. They're in a lockdown mental health facility. They kind of get back as close to normal as they can. Well, when they get normal, then the prosecutor says, okay, now it's time to prosecute them. We bring them back downtown. They gets held there. They disintegrate. They declare a doubt, and they go back out to the mental health. Wow. So it's just a vicious cycle that we go through. Wow. Have you ever committed like getting any tickets or anything? Yes. You have? Yes, I have. Do you not get out of them? I usually will try the case. Yes. I won't get into it, but I'll either have that or I'll have somebody try thecase. How about you? Have you ever been? Well, you famously had some run-ins. Yes, I had a DUI and I had to go to jail for it. How long did you go? Well, I was ordered to go 30 days, which was extreme. Sean Hawley. I know Sean well. Yes. Sean was my lawyer. And I did first, this judge sort of had it out for me. It was my first offense. Drunk driving is horrible and I was stupid, for sure. It was 0.08. So you were right on the limit. I was right on The Limit. I knew where I was. I told them, I said, I'm trying to go to Jack in the Box because I'm hungry. It was definitely drinking. The drunchies. Yeah. And then they took me in. I think it was a Friday night. I had to stay. And then my mom called Bob Shapiro. They got me out on a Sunday. My mom, she would have thought she was going to a funeral in all black, big black glasses, comes to see me. I failed as a parent. Yes. She's like, I can't believe you're doing this, but I knew it was going be you. If it was any of my kids, I'm like, oh my God, leave me in here. And dann I had probation, AA, which- Who was your judge? Do you remember? I don't remember. It was so, I was 22 or 21. I don'T remember. Sean might know. Then they gave me X amount of community service. Then I had to go see an autopsy being performed on someone. Right. They call that the HAM program. Is that what they, HAM is hospital and morgue program where you have to go either to the hospital or to the morgue and watch. I had a watch. It's hard. After you see an autopsy, I remember mine, it's chilling. Them sawing the chest open. I'll never forget the smell. Well, and then you watch the pathologists eat their lunch. No, it was in the same room. I remember sitting with Henry Lee and Cyril Wecht, who were two of the most famous pathologists in the world. And we were doing an autopesy. And they both had brought bagged lunches. And they were eating. And all I wanted to do was go throw up. And I was just like, how are you eating your lunch in the middle of this? No, it's crazy. So I did all that. So how did you have to do jail? You said 30 days. So I said all that, and then when we went back to court, I guess she just was still upset with me. I don't know. There was something where she says, I think it was something wasn't completed all the way. And Sean was saying, no, it was, but the judge, she took me right then. Remained to join the custody. You went in, you scared straight, right? I was like, oh, well, once they took my shoelaces, I was like, Oh, this is real. At first I was like, it's okay, mom. So mom's like, what? I was like, It's fine. When they took me in the back and took my shoelace is I was like, okay, this is serious. Took me to an all-girls prison. I think probably Long Beach or something. Would it have been the I got taken in Van Nuys, right, you got to because they have a woman's holding facility. And then they transferred me Right, though. And it wasn't down in Linwood. Maybe. Yeah, probably it was Linwood, yes. Because when I met Susan McDougal the first time, she was in a place called Sybil Brand. And Sybil Grand was east of the land. No, Linwood rings a bell. Linwood is probably where you were. They took me. I bet you were the queen of Linwood were you? No, they were going, Kardashian, Kardashian. I was like, oh, what's happening? They said I had to be put in solitary because it was too dangerous to put me. They just put me in a holding cell. Just by myself, they said it's too dangerous. A suspicious package came. The prison was on lockdown. They ended up letting me go after like four and a half hours. I think I was such an inconvenience to everyone. And I was nonviolent, first-time offender, really nothing else on my record. Before or after Paris? After, and that's what she mentioned. Yeah. It was Paris and Lindsay. For people who don't remember, Paris was a phenomena. Because I remember her lawyer was a good friend who's passed away, Rich Hutton. And Rich, I'll never forget all of the ins and outs of that case. Because that was down at Metro and it was the biggest deal in the world. It was kind of a scandal. It was. And I remember she was saying, I know you're friends with Paris and Lindsay and you think you're going to get away with this. And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's my sister. I was like, but okay. So she sort of had it out for our little circle of people, which I get, I would too. God, I wish I remembered who that judge was. I have to ask Sean. I'll actually text her later and ask her. You can find out. I'm sure Sean wants to forget that too. But it was, I think I was in... Well, Sean's gone on to bigger and better things than D.I. Yes. So I did. Sean's fine. Oh my gosh, the things Sean has dealt with with me and my family. But yeah, that was my one and only jail stint for the whole family. And you were only in for four and a half hours? Yeah. My holding cell for the DUI, like being drunk. And when I was drunk, like just being there hungover. 0.08 is not exactly lit. No, but I was way drunker earlier in the night. Like I remember driving. So you were on your way down. Yes. Like I was shocked it was only 0.8. Really? Yes. Well, wait, did you take breath, blood, or urine? Back then you could take your breath. And I, I know I probably shouldn't have done anything, but if you know, because if you do that, sometimes that comes back to haunt you. If you're on your way down blood, because by the time they take you to the hospital, take it. But you know it's a different era now with Lyft and Uber and those things. There's no excuse. It's really no excuse to drive if you're under the influence. Just drop your keys and go somewhere else. Yeah, no excuse I remember when I first started, we were doing nothing but DUIs. And it was, people were panicked because you'd lose your license. You couldn't get around in LA. It was a nightmare. So what piqued your interest? What about Scott? I'm always fascinated. What about Scot got you going? Well, like I said, from the beginning, I didn't know much about the case, but to me, it was open and shut just based off of everything I heard. When the Innocence Project wanted to look into it and then the new evidence i love documentaries i am open to hearing everything i'm never too adamant that i how do i know everything and then when i watched that probably five minutes in i completely was open to what the like how horrible is this and i i mean every piece of evidence from the witnesses to the robbery across the street to he would have to have cleaned at four different crime scenes to all of these things that kept snowballing. I just kept saying, and what I'll go to my grave with is, how in the world does somebody who has nothing in their background whatsoever, and you know as well as I do that if somebody is going to commit that crime, you have some telltale sign. You look back and you say, oh, I should have seen that. There was nobody who ever said that. Nobody ever said, this is a guy who tortured animals. This is a guy who slapped me or had domestic violence. None of it. There was nothing there. Do you know, and maybe you don't want to say, and maybe it's not your place, which we don't have to say. Do you now how her parents feel about him? Not happy. Really? Yeah. Originally, Sharon, Lacey's mom, was supportive until they told her about the affair. And then she turned. Which I get, but still an affair does not equate to murder. and and it's you know he's she was pregnant very pregnant at the time um and who knows what went on in their relationship i mean i'll just leave it at that right i don't know who anybody else is to impose it on that but i would have a much better um kind of viewpoint of this if somebody you explain to me why he would go to all of this trouble? I mean, I've heard so many idiotic explanations. None of them comport with the evidence. I mean you have to remember at first they said he did it for the insurance. Well, it turned out he didn't want the insurance Lacey wanted the insurance in case something happened to him. And so then they said, well, it's for another woman. Well when I cross-examined Amber, he had never told her that he loved her. They'd see each other seen each other a grand total of eight times they'd probably slept with each other each time and it was a i'll show my age wham bam thank you ma'am that was it this was not some torrid love affair where he was trying because he didn't want to get married the whole thing was kind of a tortured prosecution but uh and i still hold myself responsible for it i until he's freed I just don't think there's justice has been done. Do you regret not having some of your witnesses take the stand? You know, at the time, in retrospect, maybe, but at the Time, they had wedded themselves to the 23rd. And we so thoroughly debunked it that even the DA, who's now a judge, to Rick DeSasso, said in his closing, it doesn't matter when she died. And it was like, what? what do you mean it doesn't matter when she died this i just tried this case i've spent the last year of my life what do they had these crazy theories she was wearing khaki pants if i told you how much of that trial revolved around her khakipants and nobody ever bothered to look in the hamper there was a photo of the hampered you could see the khaki paint so obviously she had worn them yes on the 23rd but they were in the hampert because as the computer forensic guy said she was alive on the 24th so it's infuriating it just and i will tell you nobody knew the evidence back them in real time better than me i lived of course there was nothing in that evidence ever that that compelled anybody to think that he did it and you know i always thought maybe the one regret i do have there was a movie that was made you ever watch gone girl oh yeah okay so that was I was going to reference, yeah. Yeah, I was loosely based on that in the visual. The author, as I remember, said she attended part of the trial. I don't know if that's true or an apocryphal story. I do know, though, that I was tempted at one point to tell the jury, you know, Scott didn't do it, and I'm going to show you who did do it. And he's going to walk through the door right now. And that's an old Jerry Spence line. And then if they turned to look, I Was going to say, that's reasonable doubt. And I have often thought that if you really, if you were to do a podcast with one or two of these detectives, they had that look on them. Like they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. I don't think in their heart of hearts they believe it. I really don't. I mean, how could they sleep at night? I think there's a certain mentality that prosecutors and investigators have in order, they have to, they fight against this idea of convicting an innocent person. They can't, you can't. It's human nature. You can't get your head around it. The idea of prosecuting somebody who's innocent. There are people, though, who say, and I've heard this, jurors included. Well, if they didn't do this, they did something else. So it's psychic payback. That's crazy. Do you still talk to Scott? Not recently, but he's written me some really nice letters. And I feel guilty that I've not written back. So what do you think is going to happen with his case? I still believe that at some point, an appellate court will order some relief, which they did before. Mind you, his death penalty conviction was reversed, the death penalty sentence, because during the, to your point, the prejudgment rate in this case was crazy. I mean, people thought, I used to say, even the illiterate people could write Geeti on it. The Buddhists said they'd make an exception for Scott Peterson for the death penalty. I mean he was that hated. And I always thought that given the amount of time that an appellate court would do something, and they did. The Supreme Court unanimously reversed his death penalty sentence, saying that when I was yelling at the judge and literally yelling, you can't just keep kicking off people who are against the death penalty. You have to ask them the second question, which is, okay, you're against it, but can you follow the laws I give it to you? And he wouldn't do that. And they reversed the penalty because of that. And I always thought that tainted the conviction. And that alone should have given him a new trial. But that ship has sailed. So now it's going to have to be get the evidence tested and find out that if her DNA or anything related to her or somebody else is in the back of that van, game over. Do you even trust that the DNA is properly being tested? No. Right. No. In fact, one of the great kind of criminal justice issues has been when they do enough of the DNA testing to destroy it so I can't get what's called a split sample. There's a whole legion of cases about that, that they shouldn't do that. That's what it is. I just read something and I sent it to Kim. It's not about one case, it's about one... Forensic analyst. Yes, a forensic analyst. I've had cases. There was one up north in San Francisco. She was falsifying the forensic results. It might be this. I've just read about it. It happens across the country. There's one in Colorado recently. How is that even... Who would think that all these people just would be a part of something like this? So now she's going to jail for... right and for 20 years or something because she just wanted to take money to give whoever whatever verdict they want on the dna exactly that's horrible infuriating so why haven't these were things why is your sister uh on the law track and not you oh i don't know i i don' t want to be a lawyer i love all you guys but that's too much school for me but i'm private i could be private investigator i'm fascinated i and i love researching and being immersed in that but some of the stuff that she's i help her study i do flashcards with her i'm like girl this is a this is a lot how did it feel at the time you being representing scott peterson also michael jackson they're happening at the same time these trials right and i i will never forget telling michael because I had met with Tom Sneddon, who was the then Santa Barbara DA. He's passed away. And I kept telling him, you can't win this case. It's the dumbest case of all time. I said, I've spent 18 months of my life investigating this family. They didn't go to the same lawyer just because they saw a billboard or something. It was another accuser. I mean, it just made no sense. None of that case made any sense. And I said but Scott, I said needs me and I'm not going to abandon him. As I said I was doing, I'd already done the preliminary hearing. I was invested in it. And I thought I could do more good there than I could with Michael. He was in great hands with Tom, and Tom got him acquitted. And, I thought, I could more for Michael by testifying, which is what I did. And I said at the time, I said anybody who would believe that Michael Jackson that I knew was guilty of a conspiracy to obstruct as the count one indictment was, was smoking crack because Michael Jackson had no more capability at that point in his life of being guilty of that count than you did. Yeah. Thank you. I think that also just shows what an incredible lawyer you are because you're not doing it just for this notoriety. Let me go to the Michael Jackson case. You're going to where you can benefit and help the most without leaving someone high and dry. But that says so much about you. I tell clients that they don't believe it. In fact, sometimes I regret it when I tell them. They'll tell me, well, you told me you weren't going to leave me high and dried. I said, that doesn't mean you don't have to finish making your payments. exactly thank you oh my god thank you i think we're done thank you that was the best